The guys are back again! This episode we've got a bunch of combo decks trying to get the win through Jim's notorious Nin deck! Will they be able to?
Jim: Nin Scepter Stax (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/nin-competitive-primer-1/)
Jan: Yidris Storm (https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/yidris-storming-out/)
Eliot: Gitrog Dredge (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/26-06-17-all-glory-to-the-hypnotoad/)
Bill: Selvala Brostorm (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/selvala-brostorm/), deck credit to asm, tw0handt0uch, and frozeninfate
If you're interested in learning more about The Gitrog Monster's winning lines:
Leptys' Gitrog Dredge Primer: https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/gitrog-land-combo/
kiebitzen's Gitrog Primer: https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/just-froggin-around-the-gitrog-monster-primer/
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One question for JIm in the early game. Wouldn't it have been better to exile Gitrog with the Sac Land trigger already on the stack, but prior to resolution? I know it's minor, but seems like you could have kept one more card from Elliot. Despite that, really enjoyed this. Top notch play and great work all around insuring people go through the stack, talk about each trigger, and even voicing some of your decision making. It makes for interesting videos.
I know one thing I've enjoyed from LabManiacs is the post-game commentary from the winner to discuss any mistakes or comment on why they made certain choices. I know you're not them, which is great, but I wouldn't mind that extra outro of discussion where you express more of the thought process if there's anything there to discuss.
Can't say enough about how much I enjoy your content. Love people filling the void of cEDH videos.
+The Spike Feeders Thank you for the explanation. I'll try to check Reddit for more discussion. I do think that scenario and choice discussions are extremely helpful for increasing knowledge and play. This is why the Gilded Drake pause was very enlightening to have in the final edit. As for the above, this easily explains your reasoning and I can see why you made the choice you (Jim) did.
Even if the commentary is post-edit, as long as players recall their actual thoughts, hands, and lines, I have no problem with this. I think any discourse on it is helpful unless said player changes their response based on more information later ;)
This is actually a really timely comment, so thank you! We've been trying to get more discussion going about gameplay and decision making on Reddit, and I actually called out this specific play as one of the critical decision points in the game. For some reason I had it in my head that the draw was part of the resolution of the "sac a land" trigger, which as you point out is incorrect. With the incorrect understanding of the ability, I felt like I had two options:
1) Deal with it on the prior end step, leaving him + 1 land and preventing the card draw
2) Deal with it in his upkeep, leaving him -1 land but +1 card
3) Deal with it after he declares attackers, because there's a slim chance he attacks someone else
I went with 2 because I figured the Blood Moon greatly reduced his ability to cast what he draws. In the future, though, I think understanding the interaction between the upkeep trigger and the ability that triggers when a land hits the GY will help me screw with Eliot much more thoroughly.
We've been getting some pretty good feedback about the discussion points, so I think we could probably incorporate them into the actual gameplay video at some point in the future. It would likely be voiceover like we did with the Gitrog explanation here, because we don't actually have a chance to catch a lot of the misplays until we actually review the video several days after we record it. A lot of the critical decision points were brought up by our patrons on our Discord server during our advance viewing yesterday morning, too!
Yay, more Frog content...and other cEDH content!
Comments not addressed in the video:
7:03 - Eliot (arguably) should have floated a red in case he drew a (colorless) cycling land.
7:42 - 30 with 1 Frog counter! A player with 4 Frog counters loses the game.
7:53 - Citadel lost the Indestructible keyword to the Magus. It is still an artifact though.
9:58 - Eliot (arguably) should have floated a red in case he drew a (colorless) cycling land.
10:27 - Jim (arguably) should have cast Reality shift with the Frog trigger on the stack. Eliot's bottleneck is colored mana. Preventing the draw trigger is significantly more important than marginally attacking his mana.
16:17 - Intuition is targeted, unlike Fact or Fiction. You (Jan) must declare your target before searching for the cards.
17:00 - Unlikely to matter, but Intuition should be on top of Jan's graveyard.
19:32 - Missed opportunity for a Tolkien reference (Misty Mountain).
21:29 - I am curious as to why Jan did not activate DRS on Jim's end step. He would still be able to hold up Swan Song, and the likelihood of Jim tapping out on his own end step is next to zero (and the other players did not have colored mana up). Was this to not bring as much attention to the Dimir Signet (since with DRS it represents a modest clock)?
22:30 - Jan should have drawn a card off or Selvala. (As Bill controls the trigger, it is his responsibility that it goes onto the stack).
23:50 - Bill can still activate Selvala in response to the Trickbind since it is a mana ability.
25:20 - Am I correct to assume that Jim chose not to destroy the Crypt with Mox Monkey because Eliot had plenty of "colorless" mana and he valued the clock it provided more than the marginal mana advantage?
29:11 - Berserk cannot be cast after the Combat Damage Step.
29:49 - Is there a reason I cannot think of for everyone responding to the cascade trigger rather than the spell Jan would cascade into?
30:47 - Unlikely to matter, but Wheel of Fortune should be on top of Jan's graveyard.
31:37 - While the end state is similar, a "failed" cascade does not actually shuffle the library (for effects that care about that).
32:12 - I would like to know why Jan did not REB the Nin to remove potential interaction (be it removal or card draw) from Jim. As Foretold has been used this turn, so if Jan is planning to win this turn, forcing Jim's hand on Nin would be better.
34:17 - While obvious, Jan should have declared himself as the target for Ancestral Visions.
35:38 - And this is the point where we regret not keeping track of Jan's personal storm.
36:01 - Eliot to the rescue! (See previous comment)
36:55 - Unlikely to matter, but Gamble should be on top of Jan's graveyard.
36:57 - The only way to fail to find on a Gamble (or any unconditional tutor) is to have an empty library.
39:02 - While somewhat obvious, Jan should have declared himself as the target for Predict.
45:45 - SHOW THE GODDAMN LOOP! HOW ELSE AM I SUPPOSED TO BUST A FROG NUT?!?!
The brief explanation of the Frog loop was much appreciated :)
Was great to see Yidris nearly storming off through Blood Moon and without using Paradox Engine or Isochron/Reversal. Not that I don't like either of those cards (though I personally refuse to use Isochron/Reversal), was just nice to see the resilience of the archetype.
I'm personally not a fan of winning via loops. I was excited for a moment to see a combo in a Golgari deck (I've yet to build an EDH deck in those colors), but when I saw it was a loop it was a little disappointing. Still a good game, though.
Wouldn't Jan have gained X amount of life when he cast the Time Spiral? Even if the Nature's Claim resolves first, the triggered effect of Aetherflux Reservoir still would have given him some life (forgot what the storm count was at that time).
Also, does an Overloaded C. Rift count as 7cc for Cascade?
Just a minor comment, even trick bind has split second, you can use it in respond.
From Gather: Selvala’s last ability is a mana ability. It doesn’t use the stack and can’t be responded to. If the greatest
power among creatures you control is 0 or less at that time, no mana is
added to your pool.
Also really appreciate seeing the starting hand choice from Labmaniacs. This is a really difficult part of cedh in my opinion as i'm new the cedh format !
But everything you do is top quality, great viewpoints aand games
I believe its because stifle effects target the ability not the permanent
Correction selvalas ability is a mana ability and stifle effects can not target mana abilities because they do not use the stack
The one thing that is just driving me nuts is the grammatical atrocity of saying "No effects to [spell being played]". Literally every Magic player I've ever met or watched on youtube would say "No RESPONSES to [spell]". Saying "No effects to..." is not only terrible grammar but also seems to be something only you guys do. I realize you're probably not gonna change just cause I'm whining about it, as your ways are ingrained at this point. It just grates on my nerves to the point I had to say something.
Also, the word effect implies that it is a triggered event. You can't PLAY an effect. Effects and responses would be different. A response would be something they choose to cast. An effect would be a triggered ability from something already in play. At least, that's what makes sense to me.
Edit: I guess technically a static effect... is also an effect.
+Zach Scott No, the phrase "No effects to Demonic Tutor" is NOT grammatically correct. Saying "No effects." and just ending it there is fine. But saying "No effects TO..." is very wrong. Or you could say "No effects in response to Demonic Tutor" even. It's a bit wordy, but it's at least correct. But, "No effects to Demonic Tutor" is a WORD CRIME.
I play both Selvala and Gitrog and would never in a hundred years expect the game to go so long with a Blood Moon effect out against Selvala AAAAAND Gitrog being the one to win. Nice game, nice setup, glad I subbed. When you guys have the resources to film & upload more content, I'll be glued.
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